Motor Controls Webinar from AutomationTalk at AutomationDirect

hello and welcome to automation talk and if you haven't been with us before my name is Shane Crider and joining me today is Richard Palmer he's with our business development team he comes in and helps me out thanks for coming over again Richard thanks for everything as you know you signed up for it but today is our motor controls now this is a little bit different because in the past we've done some our AC drives we've done a very detailed web seminar on that and it was actually Bilbo tried out of our tech support team he came over and did it so if you want something a little bit more detailed on say drives suggested go back and watching that one now tom allow ski and I have done some on just some simple motor controls and stuff but we've added some new products since then so what Richard Ron are going to do is just show you the things that we offer that you can use to control motors and why you might would choose one over the other some of these products I didn't know about but I've never been big on motors when I was out in the field I tried to stay away from drives and stuff of security but anyway everybody has their own little niche but any look we're going to go through this so first of all we're going to start out with the agenda like I said we're gonna start out with motor controllers then we've got relays you know what's the difference between the two stuff like that soft starters and then we'll get into the AC motor drives well before we start into all that the reason why you're watching this is because you actually have a motor as you can see on the slides so you need to control that motor well don't forget automationDirect carries motors we carry all kinds of motors we have AC motors we have DC motors as you can see on the slide we have even the the new NEMA high-efficiency ones that the government has mandated we're carrying those we've had those actually for quite a while but until all the suppliers run out of their old stock you know we'll have the the original ones until we run out of stock and then you know that's all will be carrying but richer you get anything you want to add on motors or no it's not a lot more Sammy motors motor you know we've got a variety of different different rpm ranges and you know inverter Duty motors as well as general-purpose motors so check it check those out yeah just depends on what your application is you know if you're just running a conveyor you might just want to get a general purpose if you're gonna run some type of machine and you need to ramp up and down stuff like that worried about heat you might want to look at a different type of type and then you have different styles for what you're bolting up to them yeah right I mean there's all sorts of different face options there's different mounting configurations that sort of thing and you know one of the things about general-purpose versus inverter duties is you know you hit on the hit on it right there and you little what you just said is heat you know inverter Duty motors are made to take the heat they're made to be run at a turndown rate that's much more significant than the general-purpose motor so you well you can't put a general-purpose motor on a variable frequency drive you know you really have to watch that heat and you have to watch it to watch the turn down speed there's you know typically you don't want to run it less than 50 percent of the RPM range of the motor with the general-purpose motor on the drive so there's a lot of things to take into account with that but like I said we've we've actually got some some webcast that we've done with just motors themselves so feel free to go back and watch those as well and always if you have any questions you can always contact automationdirect's ports free so go through that with them and they'll help you you know walk through and pick out what's gonna be right for you we don't have any up here but you know we carry anything from a small one to one that would literally crack the concrete if we tried to bring it in here with a forklift we actually our warehouse they had to pour special concrete on the floor just so they could carry this big huge motor so they didn't crack the bus the floor up all right next slot manual motor controllers well actually only have one of these and you can see it on the slide and this is about as simple as it gets it's almost like a light switch right it's essentially a light switch as far as you can take one of these and you can mount it out there right at your motor for a local disconnecting means per you know what the codes say you have to do you know you have to have a motor disconnect within visible sight range of the motor so you mount this right there at the motors it means to turn the motor right off it's got a lockout built into it right there yep so you you know you've got your lockout tagout built right into the device so really handy for for taking them making a means to turn Motors off right there at the motor now these are actually new products that we just start in what maybe a month or so ago yeah barely recently month to month ago yeah and so this gets as simple as it is you know I said you read on there Bryant motor controllers as simple as a toggle switch to activate a motor and they can be used as the motor disconnects and you can see a little graphic on there that you know it shows where you can use it as a disconnect but yeah if you just want to be able to turn the conveyor on and turn it off for whatever your small machine is then you know we've got we've got a few people that buy them for you know personal use things where they've got a shop and they've got some large machinery in the shop and they want to be able to turn it off and be sure that kids don't get into it they'll get one of these and hang it up on the wall and block it out and a lock out my whole shop all right let's move on to the next here's a little bit better explanation like Richard said you can actually use these as the motor disconnect now and that graphic shows that you know traditionally you had a controller and a disconnect and now you actually can use them right at the motor as a disconnect and there's a little bit more explanation down there Africa where they got that info from is like NEC 2005 but yeah so you can use these but you know look up your local coach whatnot all right starters and overloads now we carry a couple of different brands of starters and their overloads and Fuji which is a big name brand and also eaten which eaton cutler hammer you know huge conglomerate of all kinds of stuff but we carry both brands there and also what we've got the less expensive brand which is gh series right which is our our private label driver label brand yes and we have those in here as well now I've only got a couple of them up here on the table but I don't know it's hard to say you know a motor controllers a motor controller right I mean what you got your hand there's a contactor right you know contactor is just it's basically just a relay yeah you know there's not much difference to it you've got a coil on it or you attach two leads to it you energize those it causes the contactor to pull in and make power flow from the top to the bottom right and it's got a little visual indicator right there on the front that shows you that it's engaged or not engaged right there's also places on the side where you can take and put on auxiliary contacts to take a nut and send a status back say a PLC or something like that and row that the Tector has engaged and those are yet I'll just simply just snap right on there I'm just trying to remember on here yes basically the same things the contact are on the bottom and try to remember the accessories I didn't bring any of the accessories out here I'll Paulo yeah we've got some we've got some interconnectors for like what you got your hands a manual motor starter right and so basically this takes a part of protecting your motor right here on the top it's got it's a thermal disconnect type of thing and then you've got a little interconnect block here the contact are on the bottom and turn it around the side you can see it's got a nice base right here she don't get formatting use all that but it makes life easy likes it a lot easier because this right here you can mount it on a piece of den rail boom click you're done with it or you can take and run tap a couple screws into it either one right you know mounting it by itself why you could do it the extra couple bucks you'll spend for the base is well worth the wait let's definitely see especially with you know if you try to run your own motor leads and whatnot definitely and this is actually a fuji brand here just in case anybody's curious about it any thinking on slide and make sure we're not missing anything oh there's a there's a selection chart what's the difference between a contactor and a starter and Richards going to pop that up real quick that there's a link on the on the slides usually we'll post the slides out on our website or whatnot but you can find that but just going to automationDirect and then go into the motor controls and going down but Richard let me get to guys see if they can switch over to our PC feed that way they can actually see the website there see this is on the Fuji one but you can just you know basically you scroll down and ask a couple of questions and it's going to answer for you know what am i using it for what I need and it'll help select for you and once again if that doesn't help you out and you still have some questions or some confusion on it you know please feel free to contact our tech support you can email me fax them you can get on the forum you can call them and they'll be glad to walk you through I mean that's what these guys are for all right this goes down a little bit more in depth on the Fuji motor contactors the different series said you know we've got from a half horsepower to 100 horsepower all the other series you know 62 300 horsepower which is some of these larger ones let me go back to yeah some of the larger ones we've got here and those are quite heavy you get quite quite a variety of coil ranges in those four you need 24 volts DC or 24 volts ac 110 volts ac 220 acceptor there's a wide variety of coils for the Fuji contactors right I've got I've actually this is the one we just talked about a minute ago I'll just leave that up while I'm talking I've got to cut a friend it's also a customer of ours and every time I see him over here picking stuff up in the office I'm like hey what are you getting because he was never really a PLC guy but he's like man he says I cannot find contactors and starters any better any cheaper than you guys yeah that's the only thing he buys from us but that's the only thing he uses you know right you know and being that he's a company owner he's going to try to find the best product he can for the best price absolutely I mean you know with the way with the economy is these days you know smart shopping so much yeah definitely definitely we were all doing it these are our eaton cutler hammer ones I don't really have any of the eaton cutler hammer ones up here wasn't a whole lot show other than you know the Fuji but you can see on the slide you know we said we've got low horsepower solutions there and we've got all the specs and the stats on that but you can find all the same stuff on our website right and like Richard said if you're looking for even more cost-competitive the gh series this is automationDirect private-label doesn't mean it's worth any less doesn't mean it doesn't work as well you know our warranties a lot of time with automationDirect stuff the warranties are usually a lot better than some of the name-brand stuff personally you know just working with a lot of our products our products that our private label or that we make ourselves or sometimes a lot better than the name-brand stuff oh absolutely I mean you know you get a great value by not buying a brand name and still get the same quality sure because you know it's just the way ways the way the brand labeling works so you can definitely make some really good buys and have the same exact quality you're paying for the name brand right by buying a brand that we have private labeled yes yes definitely and these are considered a you see on those the gh series all right we're gonna move on to something and we'll probably spend a little bit more time on it's going to be soft stars I didn't really know what soft starter was until we start carrying on we're started talking about them and you know of course we have our training classes or whatnot but yeah I mean you don't have to go from simple straight into an AC Drive and have something that you got to connect up program or all that they might be a little intimidating and soft starters are great middle of the road if you don't need the fully programmable but you don't need something that's just to kick on right think about a soft starter is you know a lot of utility a lot of utility companies charge demand charges right they charge demand charges every time you kick that hundred horse motor on wrong because it creates a huge Pole on their line we have to create extra electricity to take up that slack that you just put on their lines from starting a hundred horse motor across the line now what if you have a whole plant with say multiple machines with that same 100 horsepower motor the utility company's going to come to you and they're gonna say and mr. business owner you need to do something about this plant except all at once yes this is not acceptable obviously you wouldn't start let's just say the plant has 300 machines and they all have the same owner white power motor you're not going to throw them all on at the same time hopefully not but you know within a day you're ramping up production yeah you might ramp up production in a matter of a few hours and you know kicking on motors like that I mean your your electricity bills just racking up oh yes you know you go outside you can't see the wheel spinning so the soft starters way to get around that right what it does is it takes you have your motor connections in and out you've got some control connections on it where you would hooked up PLC or your starter push button or whatever it might happen to be right and what this does is you set a ramp using these dials on the face of it and that will take the motor from stop speed up to the full speed and then kick it over to an actual contactor that keeps the thing running so you know it's a great way to take in less than those demand charges right you know you typically save a lot of money by installing soft starts in place of a regular starter for motors I typically suggest around the 25 horse range sometimes it's cheap it's it's a lot lower than that if you have a lot of you know 10 horse motors or something like that it's what it's still what may be worth paying the soft starters in there I knew they were the product manager of these particular products I he's actually in the training class today that's why I asked him I was like trying to beg him to come in here and you know he dig into it a little bit better and he's like man he said if you could just connect a motor up to each one of these and show what the load was when you turn them on he says you'll be so surprised but unfortunately I only have 120 volts in this particular video lab so we couldn't bring in any of the motors and connect them up but you know the soft start is our great way to take them to demand charges from your electric company right you know and if you own a company and you have access to the electric bill you can see what your demand charges are because they split them out usually on your bill and tell you what your demand charges are right and taking to put motors on soft starters is a great way to reduce that and it's really simple I don't know if he can it's hard to see TJ if you can let's see if we can go back over there if he's got a shot on that one and I know we've got the graphics out there but get the video video shot these are really simple - they're really no programmable like like Richard was saying it's just a selection on there it's basically a potentiometer a selection type style there you go that's a good shot there you go this is a couple of couple little selections there and it's really easy to program right yeah these are these are the real simple ones you get up to some of the larger ones and they get a little more complicated a program but still yet you know again it's a great way to take and reduce your bills right now the electric bills because electric bills can make or break a manufacturing facility sheesh yeah especially in today's economy right so you know by taking and adding a soft start into the in place of motor contacting off the motor contactor goes bad instead of buying just another plain motor contact to replace it with a soft start you'll probably realize the money back fairly quickly definitely all right the next soft start we have is called a fully programmable soft start right and I don't know I'm sort of speechless on them you know it's it's the same type of concept as the smaller ones but these big ones here they take and therefore bigger motors you know I mean there therefore the 25 horse and on up motors you know the ones that are really really big and those are the typical places you're gonna see soft starters a lot at you know you could use a variable frequency drive or you could use a soft starter but if the motors always going to be running at a hundred percent yes you know and you never need to slow it down the VFD is kind of overkill for it soft starter is usually going to take can be a little bit of a cost savings over the VFD and these are fully programmable right usually eating program though you can program the ramp delay you can program the steepness of the slope all that sort of stuff to get the motor up to speed in the best fashion and what about coming down off of speed now the when is it any programmable coming down off speed or they just typically not I mean typically you just you you know you have them cut speed same as a motor contactor and it just drops off you know if you need a coast back down that's one of those cases you might want to be thinking about a VFD okay because you know coasting down a motor especially if it's a motor with a high torque load or high inertia with it coming back down it generates a lot of back electricity as its slowing down and you have to have someplace to absorb that electricity you can't just feed it back on the line chuck your hand like that so you know you use a VFD in that case and you might you might put on a resistor pack or you know some heater coils or something like that to absorb that energy and dissipate it safely right so that that would be a case where you probably or VFD might be more of a appropriate thing to to use in that situation okay and these soft starters are are they're actually our private label brand it's its cup Stellar's is the the label or the name brand that we put it on but yeah there we've we came out with these I know that we came out the the the first off soft starter excuse me I don't know it's been a while it's been over a year okay so I don't want to say over a year now the newer ones we came out with this year the full feet right ones came out this year in 2011 alright we'll go to the next slide soft starters applications you know we didn't really get into a whole lot and we don't really do a whole lot of app stories anymore notes it'd be nice we had some good ones but you know things like you know as you see listed there air compressors agitators conveyors crushers certain things that would soft starter would work great on operating systems right you know wood chippers tumblers any kind of milling application big rotary drums that are turning that sort of thing right stuff starters are really good for that type of thing and as you can see on the bottom why would you use it you need to reduce the voltage and acceleration deceleration alright next and last is going to be um you know if you're going from bare minimum which is you know just a switch to turn on and off you know then you move up through contactors and soft starters and the last is going to be sort of like the Cadillac of everything you have full control of your motor it's going to be an AC Drive and we've got three different types of AC drives with brands AC drives and they're all automationDirect AC drives but we got G s1 g s2 and then the derp holes and they go well sorry I thought that next slide would have all the ranges but they go anything from a small one as you can see on the table right here up to a larger one that's you go anywhere from a quarter horse up to 100 horses what we sell right and I didn't bring a large one in because I'm physically I don't want to carry around of you know the hardcore drive weighs just a little bit of money if you go to I mean it's honest things of you can take and get one of those big ones I used to mount hundred horse drives using a forklift because I got tired of lifting yes so I don't have one in here I apologize but you know you get mad there's no way to get a forklift in here no I guess we could want what we uh if you go and look at our der pol's website the intro was a chip he was bringing in one and we actually brought it in on a forklift and slams it down that's how large they are and how much they weigh but yeah AC drives um we says on the slide there's many benefits and using an AC Drive you have full control as you see there they're showing a graphic of it Ethernet control so you're using it on your network you're talking to it with a PLC or some other device we have Ethernet cards for the drives all right that's one thing the new Ethernet interface to the drives has been redesigned so if you've been using it before and you're used to the big big wide takes up a lot of den real space it's now in one of those nice sleek little blue packages that takes up very very minimal amount of AD in real space you're looking at approximately an inch of dinner'll space how do that take it's a huge huge amount of savings for a panel we own in the space requirements right that it takes we want to we've actually used that figure one in some of our learned video so you can go to either YouTube or you can go to our learn site and look at I want to say it was either communications or it might have been like some type of drives video that Tom and not done but we were using like a click PLC or you know going to the the EECOM or the ethernet communications module going out to a drive and showing how it actually works so you know take a look at that if you want to it gives you a little bit more information on it and how they actually work AC drives anything else benefits of using an AC Drive like said you know you have pretty much control you've got a lot of control of basically everything about the motor you know you can take and set excel times that are incredibly long times to get the motor up to speed you know minutes even to get a motor up to speed you can set trip points for the for amperage you can over speed the motor with with a variable frequency drive of course if you do that you need to take and do the engineering behind it to make sure that your motors going to be able to handle the torque all right at the speed that you're trying to get it to and most motor manufacturers have curves and or recommendations as to a turn down ratio that you can get the drive below its frequency as well as you know blow it's rated frequency typically 60 Hertz as well as above its rated frequency right so you know if you're going over speed or run a motor really slow with the variable frequency drive you need to pay a lot of attention to those things and watch the heat that type of thing on the drives that automationDirect sells I know one of the benefits and it's something that you know this I was was a few motors and drives that I did mess with in the field I had one go out on the machine it was a clamshell press and it was something that you didn't want running wide open all the time while the drive went out and they took it upon themselves to throw in some contactors and wired up in the anistar Delta so it would spin up I mean this thing had a flywheel there's tall it took a forklift to get it off but it was funny when it was running at full blast and you stopped machine it would shake the whole building some way guys there's a reason there was a drive on there but yeah the drives that they tried to replace it with was one of our competitors and the programming just to get it out of the box and get it up and going was just just some horrific some mint some competitor stuff is very difficult to program and that's one things we've really took and worked hard on when we did the GS series of drives we spent you know months taking and pairing that the list of parameters down right for the stuff that you actually needed to see yes into the first couple of menus versus having everything up front so you know matter of fact if you want to go and you just want to do a plane pump application you can go in there's a place in the drive to say I'm doing the pump a pumping application or a fan application right or I'm doing you know another type of application and it will set the drive up mostly for you you still have to do some some tweaking but it it gets you a lot closer to being there then you know taking and having a punch in every parameter by hand some parameters or many other manufacturers competitive stuff you're just like what do they mean by that what will the other tech know speed the mop riff a couple things on doing drives here on this drawing right here you can see you've got your disconnecting means up in the front and you got some fuses and the reason we recommend fuses for our drives we get this cut that you hit this call and technical support on a very regular basis is can I run my drive off of a circuit breaker okay very very common question answer is sure you can run it off your circuit breaker but this problem is the circuit breaker is not fast enough to take and protect the drive drive electronics will be damaged by the time the circuit breaker trips so you've made yourself a very expensive doorstop but not you okay that's that's the really short version of why not to use a circuit breaker right you're going to make a really nice doorstop you know fuses are recommended for a reason and it's because the rise time of the fuse matches the internal circuitry of the drive and the fuses are very very carefully picked to match up with the drive okay so one thing you ought to do you can put a contactor in there to take and turn the voltage on off to the drive if you need to bribe them for safety reasons OSHA you know to totally remove power could you use one of these or you get a you could use you can use something like this I mean you could use a disconnecting means but you know some people want to use a contactor because whenever the guy hits the East stop it needs to drop every needs to drop every right then okay then you've got your RF filter some drive installations don't necessarily need it ri filter and others do it's one of those things my general rule of thumb is try it if you start getting interference on some of your other electronics put it in the filter right then you've got your line reactor line reactor takes and keeps a lot of that interference from flowing upstream when it's put ahead of the drive yes it takes in a attenuates that interference that the drives throwing out from the internal thyristor Network to drop a lot of the noise from going back upstream into the utility power okay and you got your drive itself numb on the downstream side you also have possibly a line reactor and if you're running long runs to the drive of motor leads you know you want to put in a line reactor and why is that well because basically on the output of the drive you're putting out radio frequencies and those radio frequencies get to the end of the line to the motor and they actually bounce back okay it's a much reduced waveform but it does it does bounce back and reflect back towards the drive and if it gets back to the drive it's capable of taking and making the output pulses increase or decrease right and that takes and once it get once those pulses get to the drive it starts heating the motor up sure and you keep doing this and that motor starts heating a little bit harder a little bit harder and pretty soon you've got yourself a really nice smoke cloud going that's the reason for putting the line reactor on the output of a drive for long distance cable runs okay you know it's just it's it's cheap insurance right because you know you put a motor after even if you put them in further duty motor there's no guarantee that it's not going to get too hot with a long cable run right so you know if you're running long cable runs and somebody's going to ask what's a long table run you know for me it's anything over about 20 25 feet right you know your mileage may vary but you know I would for any Drive installation I just put a line reactor and there myself you know whenever I was doing it back years ago before I came to ADC right I just put line reactors and everything because it's cheap insurance for the motor sure there's all the insurance you can write if you have any questions any of this stuff when you're starting to select or if you're working on a current application you're having issues then you know you know what we talking about feel free to call it absolutely I got four we've got some of the best drive guys in the business if we've get tech support line and that is their specialty that's their specialty they don't do a whole lot of anything else you know some of them do answer other questions aside from that but I mean we've got guys that know a lot about drives and the motor controls in general right so that's a great resource it's free take advantage of it you see if I can go well I think we sort of covered all this I know it's a lot to throw in and you know 20 30 minutes but we're the the main focus was to show you what automationDirect has that can control a motor so now you know you know you can go as simple as a switch or you can go as you know complicated as I don't want to say complicated but it is you know come complex yet thanks better word advanced as a a C Drive so you know and anytime you have any questions about the stuff you know feel free to contact our tech department and they'll be glad to walk you through it helped me with selection on shoot him an email call him on the phone you know however you want to do it they'll get you the answer okay all right we're going to pause for just a quick second because we're pretty much you know run out of time but if there's any questions anybody in the audience has you know click on the ask a question button ask away and we'll answer it if we don't answer it here if I get to it too late don't worry we'll e-mail you a response so Richard anything that you've seen in the past people were typically asking about motor controls or best way to select anything well I mean the whole selection of motor controls you know you need to think about what the end result is you know if you just need the motor to spool up and run it full blast you know like say for a consumer application might be a table saw let's just use that since everyone's kind of familiar with a table saw does you know you don't really need to adjust the speed on a table saw motor runs the blade turns you push wood through it right right whereas a drill press on the other hand sometimes you need to slow that thing down a little bit to take and not burn the bit up yeah sure drilling aluminum or stainless you don't run want to run it full blast you know so you might want to take and put a small drive on there assume it's a three-phase motor on the right press so that way would be a good selection for the for a VFD or variable frequency drive the selecting a soft start you know again you're running something really big really heavy you know maybe an air compressor that's got a huge motor on it sure you know that's a it's got a 20 horsepower motor or something like that you see the lights dim in your building every time it kicks on right that might be a great application for a soft starter because it does need to run full blast but you don't want it taking and just bang and going full blast immediately you want to take a few seconds to get up to speed so that'd be a good application for a soft start right you're right okay well we don't have any other questions some of them people that asked in the beginning when we first started out but more more of it was like motion control you know this is more motor control we've done some webcast on motion control and we'll probably do some more later but you know if you want that route we've actually got some recorded ones you can go back and watch and like I mentioned earlier is if you're not familiar with the she drives we actually have a very detailed one it's an older webcast but it is very detailed bill boat ride from our tech support he was over here helping with that woman's a lot about drives yeah he sure does and he loves his job he won't leave that desk so actually we just got one popped up what about the cable type for our filters yeah if you're using VFD specific cable you know it it it all depends on your on your setup I mean V if these are very dependent upon grounding you don't if you don't ground them properly you end up with lots of noise yes and so you know ground it per what the manual says you know and be sure to ground it to the specific point using the type of the size of ground water specified by NEC and be sure that you're using point-to-point ground don't daisy change it be surprised at the number of places i go to and i see the ground water coming out of one place going up into another over into another and then to another and all you don't know is just making more noise than what you're getting rid of the ground bar so going back to what the original question was VFD specific cable it's good stuff you know in some instances i don't necessarily think it's always needed it's a personal preference of mine right if i was putting it in to some place and had to be near other equipment or other wiring i might consider it but i would still be putting in the filtering just be case because if you need VFD specific cabling you're probably going to need the filtering now what Richards are talking about is you talk about noise and stuff like that you might have somebody save one engineer technician comes in and installs a drive wires up a machine they don't care what happens outside of that as long as their equipment works their drive works their motor spins the machine runs it's good to go well then here comes another guy that's going to be working with say a PLC that has communications back through you know a computer or the network or they're using some type of remote i/o or something like that and they're like hey I keep you dropouts on my communications what's going on and we get a lot of calls like that you know with my c-more screen went blank you know we get calls of you know my PLC's you know the CPU light randomly comes on right and all those are symptoms of noise sure and noise noise is the way we're defining here is unwanted radio frequency communications that are on the power supply or on a communications cable so if these are really big about making noise you need to take steps to correct it part of that correction is using the correct filtering line reactors RF filters and taking and using good cabling techniques and good grounding techniques right we've had a couple more fall in here we're going to take one last one and then we'll move forward any special feature for the motors required when using a VFD no not particularly I mean the thing of it the thing about using VFDs and motors is if you using a general-purpose motor don't go below fifty percent of its rated speed right if you need to go less than 50 percent get yourself an inverter duty motor you know one it's made for use of 50s if you're going to over speed the motor get it get an inverter duty motor as well either one of those two cases the inverter duty motor is going to be able to hand up and handle the strain much better than a general-purpose motor is so you know select your motor with a thought to the speed you're going to be running that the majority of time you know if you're taking a bring into something up to speed and you take and it's going to be at a speed for just a few seconds and then ramping up to full speed right you know the general purpose motor may or may not handle that okay but general rule of thumb less than 50% get yourself an inverter duty motor over speed get yourself an inverter duty motor okay cool good answer all right any of those other questions that came through don't worry we'll answer them follow up on some emails and like say if you have some more questions feel free to go ahead and dump them in and we'll still answer those later on or we'll get you in contact with the right guys which is typically you know the guys over in takes the floor but thank you for all those questions thank you for all the answers thanks for everything all right now we're at the end so please don't log out yet guys are gonna start up a little ending video that just shows you some stuff we're gonna give away some free stuff so please watch it and Richard thanks once again for coming in appreciate it and always thank our audience for coming in and logging in and watched us for 30 minutes so thanks everybody have a great day